Virgin passages

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Jaan
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Virgin passages

Post by Jaan »

When entering passages of what appears to be a virgin (untouched) cave, what signs will help determine the stability of the cave?
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RE: Virgin passages

Post by Jaan »

Maybe my question was confusing hmmm....
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Re: Virgin passages

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You're asking how you can tell in an un-travelled cave is safe to enter?
Assessing the stability of a live/wild cave isn't like doing a structural analysis of a building. Treat them all like the roof's about to cave in!
Typically you'll happen across areas of breakdown which indicate prior roof or wall collapse.
Large formations are a good sign. Because of how long it takes for them to form they tend to indicate that it's a fairly stable cave (or has been in the past) don't take it as a hard and fast rule though!
Caves with water flowing through them (especially ones with storm water diverting into or through them) are going to show accelerated erosion and so are more likely to have breakdowns etc.
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Re: Virgin passages

Post by redox »

Also limestone -especially if it is imbued with iron (stained redish color), and/or if it is part of an uplifted formation (if you notice wavy strata in the area of the cave) tends to be more "foliated" than dolomite (greyish rock), and more prone to breakdown. Not that I have much caving experience.. I've just taken lots of geology classes.
Last edited by redox on Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Virgin passages

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but you do have a lot of experiences with the passages of virgins right?
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Re: Virgin passages

Post by redox »

cobcob wrote:but you do have a lot of experiences with the passages of virgins right?
yes actually, I'm very lucky not to have been thrown in jail on several occasions....and don't fucking interrupt when I'm editing my my posts or nailing virgins
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Re: Virgin passages

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my my posts?
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Jaan
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RE: Virgin passages

Post by Jaan »

Upon reading the responses of my post I feel very grateful to have your input and glad I didn't rappel
to the lower level that day. I just had a feeling...
But I would love to go to this cave with a few other people and have you give me your thoughts after seeing it first hand. Lets set something up and then maybe go to some other caves also if time permits. As I read the responses to virgin passage title I see I should be careful in my choice of titles as you guys keep my mind in the gutter every time I come back to read this forum. :wink:
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Re: Virgin passages

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Yeah, Redeaux is a trashy fella... always making non PG-13 comments.
In the situation you're talking about I'd be primarily concerned with the integrity of the top anchor points for the rope and then turn an eye to the lower area.
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RE: Virgin passages

Post by Jaan »

There is a huge boulder wedged between the narrow walls as you first enter this cave. It appears to be perfect for tying off on. There's a pic of me going under it in jeffers05 post.

The stability of the cave is questionable to me.

Speaking of questions: does the moving mouth on cobcob's profile affect anyone elses focus ability?
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Re: Virgin passages

Post by cobcob »

ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
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RE: Virgin passages

Post by PANIC! on the Titanic »

Aight so as a paid cave guide and geology major, I couldn't pass up this question.

So, while breakdown isn't uncommonly seen in many caves, in general the chances of a cave collapse are very slim. Note I said slim, not nonexistent. It would be rare, but it can happen, and it would be especially rare for the cave to go through time only to decide to collapse with someone in it, unless they are being a dumbass and blasting dynamite while in the cave!

And Cobcob was right about flowing water accelerating erosion thus accelerating breakdown. Most caves in the ozarks area are ancient remnants and the cave streams that go through most of them aren't the streams present during the cave's origin, or speleogenesis. And also yeah, large formations mean the caves has been active and stable for a long ass time, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be adventurous and check out caves with small or no speleothems!

Finally, uplifting has definitely been an issue in this area (hence the ozark plateau) but most caves around here are older than the latest uplifting, so if the uplift damaged the structural integrity of any caves, it would have been long long ago.

Also, for future references, the term "virgin cave" is actually a cavers term meaning a cave that nobody has been in before and you're the first one in it, a real rarity these days. Look for no human footprints or obvious marks, flags, etc, you probably already knew all that. But again be adventurous, and pop some cave cherries!! Don't worry; they're old enough!

K I'm done now.

:D
Last edited by PANIC! on the Titanic on Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Virgin passages

Post by PANIC! on the Titanic »

Oh wait, you said no gutter minds... Sorry.
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Re: RE: Virgin passages

Post by cobcob »

PANIC! on the Titanic wrote:blah blah blah

Cobcob was right
blah blah blah
pop some cherries!!
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RE: Virgin passages

Post by PANIC! on the Titanic »

Excellent summation.
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